Question about casino record-keeping. Let's say I need to prove what someone did at a major national casino on a certain day, approximately two years ago. The person used his player's club card on every game he played, and he used the player's club card to get comped on one meal. The more detailed information I can get about his activities, the better. My question is two-part: (1) Can I expect the casino to still have detailed records of what this person did, or would the records have been purged/destroyed by now? (2) What will it take to get the casino to release the records? (You can assume the person will sign a release for me to get the records, but will not go to the casino in person.)
posted by anonymous to Sports, Hobbies, & Recreation (19 answers total)
posted by anonymous to Sports, Hobbies, & Recreation (19 answers total)
- How To Keep Gambling Records Without
- How To Keep Good Tax Records For Gambling
- How To Keep Good Records
The casino will probably have the records for auditing purposes. They might not be easily accessible, though. And I would expect them to refuse to release them without a court order, simply because producing them is a hassle while refusing to produce them is easy.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:27 PM on July 23, 2009
May 03, 2019 At a minimum, your records should include the dates and types of specific wagers or gambling activities, name and address/location of each casino you. Sep 23, 2011 Why Players Don't Keep Records. The number one reason why people do not keep a log is because they feel it is inconvenient. Most players who keep a gambling log have it on a computer spreadsheet or in a notebook at home.
1) A subpoena, probably and 2) a lawyer, definitely.
posted by Happydaz at 9:30 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by Happydaz at 9:30 PM on July 23, 2009
From my dealings with casinos (not as a player, as a gaming machine vendor to them), they don't want to tell anybody anything. If they could operate totally opaquely, they would. Even basic questions like, 'Okay, so how many people do you expect to be using this workstation?' get flak about, 'Well, that depends. Why do you need to know?'
The folks above are right: they're not going to produce the records without a court order. Not because they're protecting the privacy of their patrons, but because they'd prefer you not know anything about their operations.
But I promise you they have those records. They have reports on everything. A casino is better instrumented than the space shuttle. Whether or not the reports are aggregated, though, is another story. The history of slots play, for instance, is probably tied up in their slots accounting system; the lunch is in their hospitality database. Likewise, if it's two years old, the logs have probably been rotated into tape archives in a vault somewhere. Even if they were willing to reveal the slightest detail, it'd require hours and hours of work to locate and retrieve the records. Unless the consequence of refusal is sanctions and fines, they're not going to help you.
Sorry.
posted by Netzapper at 10:18 PM on July 23, 2009
The folks above are right: they're not going to produce the records without a court order. Not because they're protecting the privacy of their patrons, but because they'd prefer you not know anything about their operations.
But I promise you they have those records. They have reports on everything. A casino is better instrumented than the space shuttle. Whether or not the reports are aggregated, though, is another story. The history of slots play, for instance, is probably tied up in their slots accounting system; the lunch is in their hospitality database. Likewise, if it's two years old, the logs have probably been rotated into tape archives in a vault somewhere. Even if they were willing to reveal the slightest detail, it'd require hours and hours of work to locate and retrieve the records. Unless the consequence of refusal is sanctions and fines, they're not going to help you.
Sorry.
posted by Netzapper at 10:18 PM on July 23, 2009
1. They will have it. If you can tell which casino, I can probably guess which player tracking system they're using.
2. You won't get it.
Netzapper - you're partially incorrect. Casinos are one of the few industries left that actually respect a person's privacy. The amount of time and money that goes into software development and process development to ensure that privacy would surprise you. Granted, the more money you spend, the more privacy you can expect, but they will go to some significant lengths to protect privacy.
Also, those records are almost certainly aggregated and separated. And almost certainly still online. Two years old is nothing. Some properties have records, online, active, and instantly retrievable, for individual slot sessions 10+ years ago.
One of the reasons you won't get it is that no employee wants to lose their license over what would sound like to them to be a trivial matter.
posted by krisak at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2009
2. You won't get it.
Netzapper - you're partially incorrect. Casinos are one of the few industries left that actually respect a person's privacy. The amount of time and money that goes into software development and process development to ensure that privacy would surprise you. Granted, the more money you spend, the more privacy you can expect, but they will go to some significant lengths to protect privacy.
Also, those records are almost certainly aggregated and separated. And almost certainly still online. Two years old is nothing. Some properties have records, online, active, and instantly retrievable, for individual slot sessions 10+ years ago.
One of the reasons you won't get it is that no employee wants to lose their license over what would sound like to them to be a trivial matter.
posted by krisak at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2009
Depending on the exact circumstances here, a subpoena may not be that difficult to come by if this matter is truly that important to you and you have a lawful reason for requesting the records. You'd need a lawyer, of course, and might potentially have to compensate the casino for their efforts in complying if they need to search through lots of records. Presumably, you'd have to pay court fees and process server expenses too. In other words, it wouldn't be cheap, but it may be possible. Get thee to an attorney.
posted by zachlipton at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by zachlipton at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2009
Joe - producing them is actually pretty easy. They do it all day long - it's how they make many of their decisions for whether or not to comp.
posted by krisak at 10:40 PM on July 23, 2009
posted by krisak at 10:40 PM on July 23, 2009
Netzapper - you're partially incorrect. Casinos are one of the few industries left that actually respect a person's privacy. The amount of time and money that goes into software development and process development to ensure that privacy would surprise you.
I wrote that software. And yes, privacy was important and protected constantly. Except, of course, when people decided to cut development time--'XOR encryption's good enough, dude.' The frequency of that happening would surprise you. The industry protects privacy just as long as it's making them money, and not a moment thereafter.
That said, I found that the casinos were utterly and completely uninterested in sharing even the most trivial detail of their operations with outsiders. Even when we were writing software for them.
However, it's news to me that they keep their play log records online that long. The play logs on our systems were archived as they filled up (couple gigs), although aggregate data (hand totals, game totals, daily totals, players' cash out and in, etc.) was peeled off separately for storage and analysis on their main systems.
But I have no idea if that data was then associated with a PCC in the main system and kept in aggregate. Because, as I said, they wouldn't tell us what they were doing.
posted by Netzapper at 11:26 PM on July 23, 2009
I wrote that software. And yes, privacy was important and protected constantly. Except, of course, when people decided to cut development time--'XOR encryption's good enough, dude.' The frequency of that happening would surprise you. The industry protects privacy just as long as it's making them money, and not a moment thereafter.
That said, I found that the casinos were utterly and completely uninterested in sharing even the most trivial detail of their operations with outsiders. Even when we were writing software for them.
However, it's news to me that they keep their play log records online that long. The play logs on our systems were archived as they filled up (couple gigs), although aggregate data (hand totals, game totals, daily totals, players' cash out and in, etc.) was peeled off separately for storage and analysis on their main systems.
But I have no idea if that data was then associated with a PCC in the main system and kept in aggregate. Because, as I said, they wouldn't tell us what they were doing.
posted by Netzapper at 11:26 PM on July 23, 2009
There is a movie that has that as part of the plot, it's called Criminal. It's a remake of an Argentinian film Nine Queens.
posted by P.o.B. at 12:32 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by P.o.B. at 12:32 AM on July 24, 2009
Just a quick note -- I will be passing this question on to a former director of security at the Bicycle Casino. I imagine he may have a solid insight into this.
posted by splice at 4:15 AM on July 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by splice at 4:15 AM on July 24, 2009 [1 favorite]
Director of surveillance, not security, I should have said.
posted by splice at 4:16 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by splice at 4:16 AM on July 24, 2009
They almost certainly still have the data, but you'd likely need a court order to get it.
posted by paulg at 6:43 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by paulg at 6:43 AM on July 24, 2009
If it was a Harrah's casino, you can get your win/loss statements going back several years online by accessing your Total Rewards account. They have a lot more information than that, but they are almost certain not to release that information to a third party without a court order.
posted by Lame_username at 8:21 AM on July 24, 2009
posted by Lame_username at 8:21 AM on July 24, 2009
Since this question is still live I'll clarify a bit. Netzapper and I clearly have experience with different player tracking software. I should say that many, but not all, casinos will have those records going back to as long as they had computers in the place. I would be surprised if they have records of every spin and every bet, but they would likely have a session summary, which times the time between when the player inserts a card and when they remove the card. Basically - every time they sat down and played an individual machine.
As for privacy, yes, their desire to guard privacy is due wholly to economic concerns - they need customers to trust them, otherwise no one will be willing to play at their casino. If you're interested in the operations side of things, there are a few books that explain their accounting processes, their record keeping, and even their cage and credit operations in great detail. It's a lot less interesting than you might think...
Customer data is one of the most valuable commodities within the industry. The recent TI sale almost got cancelled due to a dispute not over price, or physical assets, or personnel, but specifically over the customer database and all of those historical records.
With that said, most casinos are somewhat loathe to part with that data wholesale. However, depending on which player tracking software they're using, and what their policies are, you can possibly get to the information you're looking for by impersonating the person you're trying to investigate. Keep in mind that that's illegal in every jurisdiction I know of, so don't do it. In general, it's going to take some strong legal backing to ge those records. Without knowing which casino you're dealing with, I can't give any more than generalities.
posted by krisak at 9:10 AM on July 24, 2009
As for privacy, yes, their desire to guard privacy is due wholly to economic concerns - they need customers to trust them, otherwise no one will be willing to play at their casino. If you're interested in the operations side of things, there are a few books that explain their accounting processes, their record keeping, and even their cage and credit operations in great detail. It's a lot less interesting than you might think...
Customer data is one of the most valuable commodities within the industry. The recent TI sale almost got cancelled due to a dispute not over price, or physical assets, or personnel, but specifically over the customer database and all of those historical records.
With that said, most casinos are somewhat loathe to part with that data wholesale. However, depending on which player tracking software they're using, and what their policies are, you can possibly get to the information you're looking for by impersonating the person you're trying to investigate. Keep in mind that that's illegal in every jurisdiction I know of, so don't do it. In general, it's going to take some strong legal backing to ge those records. Without knowing which casino you're dealing with, I can't give any more than generalities.
posted by krisak at 9:10 AM on July 24, 2009
you can possibly get to the information you're looking for by impersonating the person you're trying to investigate.
It seems from the question like the person whose records these are is on board with getting them, so that authorization might help: the OP wrote:
You can assume the person will sign a release for me to get the records, but will not go to the casino in person.
So since the OP will be trying to get an individual's own records with the consent of that individual, the scenario is a bit different.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 AM on July 24, 2009
It seems from the question like the person whose records these are is on board with getting them, so that authorization might help: the OP wrote:
You can assume the person will sign a release for me to get the records, but will not go to the casino in person.
So since the OP will be trying to get an individual's own records with the consent of that individual, the scenario is a bit different.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:32 AM on July 24, 2009
Woops, I missed that part, Sidhedevil, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I apologize - when I read the initial question it was after a really long work day and I was tired. My mistake.
In that case it looks like you may simply be able to take the release to the casino's player's club in person and they may be more than willing to hand over the records. That's the easiest thing to do, before trying to get any legal help. Different casinos will have different policies, but with a signed release (especially if you can get it notarized), they may not have an issue at all.
posted by krisak at 9:40 AM on July 24, 2009
In that case it looks like you may simply be able to take the release to the casino's player's club in person and they may be more than willing to hand over the records. That's the easiest thing to do, before trying to get any legal help. Different casinos will have different policies, but with a signed release (especially if you can get it notarized), they may not have an issue at all.
posted by krisak at 9:40 AM on July 24, 2009
For what it is worth, I have seen these detailed records attached to a criminal history/profile. Law enforcement and courts don't have any problems getting them, so it is at least possible.
posted by Sheppagus at 12:12 PM on July 24, 2009
posted by Sheppagus at 12:12 PM on July 24, 2009
The first thing I would do is ask the person whose records you want to call or otherwise contact the casino and tell them: 'I need my win-loss records on day X for tax reasons. What's the procedure to get them?' (Or you could do that yourself.) Generally, casinos are pretty obliging about handing this stuff over, as long as you follow this procedure. The procedure is probably something as simple as: you fax them a completed request form. They will want some sort of proof of identity to make sure that the person is making the request is the same as the person who played the games, such as a Social Security number. You should be able to get some significant info if you have the person's cooperation. I have never asked for records about comped meals or anything like that and so I don't have any ideas there.
posted by Mr. Justice at 8:37 PM on July 25, 2009
posted by Mr. Justice at 8:37 PM on July 25, 2009
And here's the answer from the aforementioned former director of surveillance:
The Casino will probably still have the information on their database. As for releasing the information it would probably take a subpoena for a private third party to get it. In other words there's got to be something going on in court that pertains to the records requested. Law enforcement usually can get anything the casino has as far as records or video is concerned. If the first party wanted the records and had a reasonable reason either the owner or the General Manager would have to approve it. I'm just speaking from my experience in California other locations may be different. For the Casino the best policy is to hand over nothing voluntarily.
And another answer from someone who knows casinos as well:
Data regarding credit card purchases and player tracking information, including comps, may very well be kept that long, but maintenance time frames are likely subject to jurisdictional requirements and/or company internal control policies.
Whether the information is releasable is also an issue of jursidctional requirments; might be considered if the purpose for the request for disclosure is directly related to a legal matter; and whether the Freedom Of Information Act is applicable. However, generally, the information required for disclosure under FOIA may be redacted to the point of rendering it unsuable for the FOIL-er's purpose. Most businesses today refuse to divulge anything about their employees or customers and are relucatant to turn over any information to a non-law enforcement third perty, regardless of a signed release from the subject permitting disclosure.
They seem to pretty much agree with each other. The information may still be there, but you're not likely to get it unless the law is involved somehow.
posted by splice at 4:23 AM on July 27, 2009
The Casino will probably still have the information on their database. As for releasing the information it would probably take a subpoena for a private third party to get it. In other words there's got to be something going on in court that pertains to the records requested. Law enforcement usually can get anything the casino has as far as records or video is concerned. If the first party wanted the records and had a reasonable reason either the owner or the General Manager would have to approve it. I'm just speaking from my experience in California other locations may be different. For the Casino the best policy is to hand over nothing voluntarily.
And another answer from someone who knows casinos as well:
Data regarding credit card purchases and player tracking information, including comps, may very well be kept that long, but maintenance time frames are likely subject to jurisdictional requirements and/or company internal control policies.
Whether the information is releasable is also an issue of jursidctional requirments; might be considered if the purpose for the request for disclosure is directly related to a legal matter; and whether the Freedom Of Information Act is applicable. However, generally, the information required for disclosure under FOIA may be redacted to the point of rendering it unsuable for the FOIL-er's purpose. Most businesses today refuse to divulge anything about their employees or customers and are relucatant to turn over any information to a non-law enforcement third perty, regardless of a signed release from the subject permitting disclosure.
They seem to pretty much agree with each other. The information may still be there, but you're not likely to get it unless the law is involved somehow.
posted by splice at 4:23 AM on July 27, 2009
I just happened to re-read this question for some other purpose and have to object to the last answer from Splice's contact. The FOIA does not apply to private business records. The Freedom of Information Act is crafted very specifically to apply only to records held by the Federal Government. See '>the wikipedia article for more detailed information.
posted by Lame_username at 9:39 AM on August 6, 2009
posted by Lame_username at 9:39 AM on August 6, 2009
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RaleighCraps
I have a resolution this year to try and keep as accurate a track as I can on my gambling trips. Obviously bankroll taken, and net outcome are key entries. Since I play almost 100% craps, I don't have to worry about tracking lots of games. This log needs to have enough information so I can use it to prove losses to offset the big jackpot my wife is going to win this year.I also think I would like to try and track some roll outcomes.
For instance:
how many times exactly, does a shooter 7 out on their first roll after the point?
how many points does each shooter make?
Do any of you keep gambling logs, and if so, what information have you found vital to have?
Also, what information did you think you need, but ended up dumping? I expect trying to track the rolls is going to prove too much work, and interfere with the 'fun' of the experience.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
Wizard
Administrator
According to page 12 of IRS publication 529 ,the minimum a gambling log should include is:Administrator
Date and type of wager or wagering activity.
The name and address or location of the gambling establishment.
Names of other persons present during the gambling activity.
Amount won or lost.
In addition, you should keep other documentation such as W2-G forms and losing tickets.
Personally, I keep my log in Excel, and always retain W2-G forms and losing sports tickets.
The book Tax Help for Gamblers by Jean Scott & Marissa Chien has a whole chapter on this topic.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
DJTeddyBear
...so I can use it to prove losses to offset the big jackpot my wife is going to win this year.
Very nice positive thinking!Tracking individual shooter's activity might be useful for your own analysis, but I doubt the IRS cares. In fact, casinos might frown upon that, so don't bother.
On the flip side, if you were a Bacarat player and kept notes, yeah, keep those notes with the tax records once you're done analyzing it.
If you take out any markers or ATM withdrawls, keep those receipts to help prove how much you went thru.
How To Keep Gambling Records Without
Now that I think about it, since you get a receipt when you take out as well as pay off markers, that might be the best backup paperwork you can get.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
boymimbo
I have a resolution this year to try and keep as accurate a track as I can on my gambling trips. Obviously bankroll taken, and net outcome are key entries. Since I play almost 100% craps, I don't have to worry about tracking lots of games. This log needs to have enough information so I can use it to prove losses to offset the big jackpot my wife is going to win this year.
I also think I would like to try and track some roll outcomes.
For instance:
how many times exactly, does a shooter 7 out on their first roll after the point?
how many points does each shooter make?
Do any of you keep gambling logs, and if so, what information have you found vital to have?
Also, what information did you think you need, but ended up dumping? I expect trying to track the rolls is going to prove too much work, and interfere with the 'fun' of the experience.
I would log whatever is of interest to you. But all of these things are calculable so you would need to measure something against an objective that you have. For me, I would keep a log to validate a betting system that you have.
The way I see it is that I would log every roll that you see. That way, when you come home, you have an entire data set to analyze. The worst part about data is that you don't have enough to analyze. I would also keep track of your bets and the amount won or lost on each roll. You might also want to add a column for the quality of shooter that the player is if you care or if you want to match up fact with superstition!
Whenever I go gambling, I log my wins and losses and the games that I played to get there. So, for example, my log would look like this. I don't care about individual bets.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Nareed
According to page 12 of IRS publication 529 ,the minimum a gambling log should include is:
Date and type of wager or wagering activity.
The name and address or location of the gambling establishment.
Names of other persons present during the gambling activity.
Amount won or lost.
What, they don't ask for an exact count of the times the dice bounced before hitting the back wall? Is the IRS getting soft?
Seriously, do you have to ask other gamblers for their names at, say, a craps table to put them in your log? Or does this refer to the dealers? Or to other people in your gambling aprty?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
How To Keep Good Tax Records For Gambling
calwatch
It has to be a contemporaneous record of activity (similar to a mileage log when you are allocating mileage between personal and business use of a vehicle). Note that, contrary to IRS instruction, gambling logs can be recorded on a per session basis, not on a per-roll or per-pull basis (although one could choose to be more detailed if they wished). It's per visit, or per-buy of the chips. Shollenberger v. Commissioner. The IRS instruction to have witnesses is suggestive, but the Tax Court has found that other contemporaneous records are acceptable, such as gambling calendars, canceled checks, and ATM withdrawal receipts. Gagliardi v. Commissioner (which in itself is a sad read of a lottery winner who literally threw several hundred thousand dollars down the drain every year, by gambling almost every working day). Even bank statements will get you partial credit if the Tax Court believes you - Tomko vs. Commissioner.
For horse betters, one idea would be to collect the losing tickets, put it in the Daily Racing Form, and tape it up. Just make sure your tax preparer doesn't lose the records. Caro vs. Commissioner.
For horse betters, one idea would be to collect the losing tickets, put it in the Daily Racing Form, and tape it up. Just make sure your tax preparer doesn't lose the records. Caro vs. Commissioner.
RaleighCraps
Great post calwatch. That is some good and useful input.Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
teddys
Gagliardi v. Commissioner (which in itself is a sad read of a lottery winner who literally threw several hundred thousand dollars down the drain every year, by gambling almost every working day).
Wow, that is really sobering.
-----------------------------------
Does the tax court still use a typewriter?
'Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe.' -Rig Veda 10.34.4
calwatch
How To Keep Good Records
All legal documents are still produced in a basic font - the Tax Court apparently likes Courier, most other courts use Times. The official versions generally have line numbers on the left hand side.
What's interesting is that the Tax Court catches the IRS in a bit of hypocrisy (page 22) and the laziness of the IRS counsel to rely on a definition of 'pathological gambling' from, of all places, Wikipedia (!) (page 26). Also a description of the taxpayer's expert witness, Mark Nicely, who apparently has solved the 'gambler's ruin' math problem, but only shares it with his clients as it is a trade secret (page 29), and a formula that takes into account amount bet and time played to corroborate that the amount lost was reasonable (page 30).
What's interesting is that the Tax Court catches the IRS in a bit of hypocrisy (page 22) and the laziness of the IRS counsel to rely on a definition of 'pathological gambling' from, of all places, Wikipedia (!) (page 26). Also a description of the taxpayer's expert witness, Mark Nicely, who apparently has solved the 'gambler's ruin' math problem, but only shares it with his clients as it is a trade secret (page 29), and a formula that takes into account amount bet and time played to corroborate that the amount lost was reasonable (page 30).